Whew. Wheeeeeeeeew. What a handful of days we've had.
In just the last four days (and in no particular order)
I've had a cat puke on my pillow THREE nights in a row. Seriously.
I've had a small child screaming at every time to eat.
I've had a bigger small child break out in butt rash. (The worst) (He spent 45 minutes in a bath tonight "just because" and then after we were drying off and he goes: "OH NO! What happened to my fingers?!" hehe
I've had a doctor visit for the smaller child. (always difficult)
(Last week we did a doctor visit for him and a vet visit for the cat.)
More cat puke on the floor. Come on.
Cranky news from a loved one about really awful things at work.
My best friend has piles of upsetting things happening to her all at the same time.
Oh, Saturday I was up a pound (I know that's more than four days past, but oh well) This is of course besides the normal: loads of laundry, dishwasher running every day, my face breaking out, the desire to do something about it and so seriously NO time without something in my hands (okay now I could, since the big one is in bed and the little one asleep in the swing, but my time is limited)... When I sat down here I had just started my 5th load (yes, fifth) of laundry for today. I had two already washed yesterday does that count? and I loaded and started the dishwasher... these things just don't stop or let up at all. I picked up the toys and filled my water bottle, I'm ready to do my work out. The house is mostly quiet (aside from the previously mentioned appliances running). I have a LONG list of things I'd like to do before Saturday morning... paint my toe nails, shave, find something incredible to wear (did I mention I have plans Saturday? I didn't... well, I have plans Saturday! I am going to be out all day with a friend and I'm so pumped about it, but I have no time to get ready for it!) After sending this, I plan on doing my work out and then turning the pages of a book I've been working on for near a month now until Mark wakes up to eat again. At that time I'll pray that we can accomplish the task without one or both of us crying and waking up Matthew. Then it will be bed for us. Where's the time for Kate? Where has it gone? ... ha! It up and left with motherhood that's for sure. Mostly I don't mind it though. I love my boys. I sometimes just miss 'me time.' Yesterday Jamie suggested that I take a bath at one such sleeping interval. I wasted that time and poof! it was gone with no bath.
So far today, for those wondering, Mark has really been better. (I think, I hope!) He hasn't one time all out screamed while eating... CRIED a lot, but not the pain kind of screaming. I'm hoping this means we're on the right path finally. I'm sitting three feet from him currently and he's just so beautiful. I hate knowing that he's been in pain. Each feeding time today was bad, but it wasn't horrific as the past weeks have been. Hopefully tomorrow will go even more smoothly. Please please please.
Okay, off to shred it before anyone wakes up and needs me!
Thursday, April 30, 2009
Wednesday, April 29, 2009
up the meds
We ended up back AT the doctor's office. The doc we saw last week was of course off today and the doc there didn't want to up the dosage without seeing Mark first, so we went. I sent Matthew off to a friend's house (thank you!) and Mark and I went distraction-free to the doc again. She said the same things I've been hearing "He's so sweet, he's so content" Yah. Sure. You come over when it's time to eat and then tell me what you think. She checked him over head to toe and determined she agrees and it is probably reflux or worse, silent reflux. We have a referral to see an ENT doc to get his tongue tie dealt with. It will be on my list to call next week. She also wants him to come back for an assesment and weight check next week. Works out since he had an appt already for the 4 month check up and shots.
ALSO-- SCORE!!!! The called our ins last week and argued with them and got us a credit for the amount paid last week! I was near estatic when the receptionist said we didn't have a copay. I stood there looking stupid I'm sure. haha.
Anyhow, LOTS of screaming today. LOTS of it. But hopefully with the meds kicking in we'll see some improvement tomorrow.
Night.
ALSO-- SCORE!!!! The called our ins last week and argued with them and got us a credit for the amount paid last week! I was near estatic when the receptionist said we didn't have a copay. I stood there looking stupid I'm sure. haha.
Anyhow, LOTS of screaming today. LOTS of it. But hopefully with the meds kicking in we'll see some improvement tomorrow.
Night.
Tuesday, April 28, 2009
The crying continues...
Ohhh my poor head.
My poor back.
My poor baby...
Yesterday Mark ate good in the early morning, then 11am to 1:30pm he screamed and refused to eat. Ate fine around 4. Screamed his head off and refused to eat from 7 until near 9... Resulting in me pumping from pain and then feeding it to him in a bottle which surprisingly he took gulping it.
Today similar story. Fine during the day... until about 4:30... ate sort of okay then, but mostly smiling and playing with me. Then at 7:30-9:15 just cried his head off. I got him to take a little bit but he just wouldn't settle.
I will be calling the new doc back tomorrow and at the encouragement of two different friends, ask if we should be increasing his meds. *sigh*
Don't ever think that "this is too hard" ... It can always get harder.
BUT I'm trying to lean on God through this. And that's hard. I feel so alone. I feel so bad for my baby. I feel like I'm failing him. A friend wrote me this in an email yesterday and I've been clinging to it all day today: He's not rejecting you, he's just confused and frustrated too.
I'll update more tomorrow after I call the doc again. Night all.
My poor back.
My poor baby...
Yesterday Mark ate good in the early morning, then 11am to 1:30pm he screamed and refused to eat. Ate fine around 4. Screamed his head off and refused to eat from 7 until near 9... Resulting in me pumping from pain and then feeding it to him in a bottle which surprisingly he took gulping it.
Today similar story. Fine during the day... until about 4:30... ate sort of okay then, but mostly smiling and playing with me. Then at 7:30-9:15 just cried his head off. I got him to take a little bit but he just wouldn't settle.
I will be calling the new doc back tomorrow and at the encouragement of two different friends, ask if we should be increasing his meds. *sigh*
Don't ever think that "this is too hard" ... It can always get harder.
BUT I'm trying to lean on God through this. And that's hard. I feel so alone. I feel so bad for my baby. I feel like I'm failing him. A friend wrote me this in an email yesterday and I've been clinging to it all day today: He's not rejecting you, he's just confused and frustrated too.
I'll update more tomorrow after I call the doc again. Night all.
Sunday, April 26, 2009
tummy update
Mark seems to be doing somewhat better. I have to admit I've been erring on the side of more medicine rather than less, and I've been giving him the new doctor's recommended dose of Mylanta between some feedings when he seems particularly upset. All in all though I do think he is doing better. Something else that I've noticed is that when he's done eating, he's done. Matthew used to nurse for 45 minutes at a time and still want more. Mark just doesn't. If he eats 5 minutes or 10 or 15 and lets go, that's it folks. I am having a hard time shifting my thinking of "how Matthew did it" to "what Mark DOES." He's still been more fussy than content but at least it's not screaming in pain any more. Thankfully. I'm really glad for new friend's suggestion at her family's doctor. (Thank you Brenda)! Another thing I've been noticing as I talk to more and more moms about this and as I read my friend Holly's blog, this poor issue of the baby tummy troubles is so sad and affects so many. And it's so real.
Our previous Doctor McJerkyson makes me so mad becuase of his unwilling to see a real problem going on with my poor baby. I put this out as a plea to any mommas out there who think something IS wrong with their baby and not finding answers... GO somewhere else! Seek the opinion of someone who's willing to care about your baby's best interest, not their own. When I went to the new doctor and she was so concerned and so willing to do and try something to COMFORT my sad baby, I was certain I wasn't nuts. And finally began to feel like a good mom--something that I wasn't feeling hours before. When the doctor basically tells you that babies cry for many reasons and maby you're doing something wrong... you start to feel like you ARE doing something wrong.
Our previous Doctor McJerkyson makes me so mad becuase of his unwilling to see a real problem going on with my poor baby. I put this out as a plea to any mommas out there who think something IS wrong with their baby and not finding answers... GO somewhere else! Seek the opinion of someone who's willing to care about your baby's best interest, not their own. When I went to the new doctor and she was so concerned and so willing to do and try something to COMFORT my sad baby, I was certain I wasn't nuts. And finally began to feel like a good mom--something that I wasn't feeling hours before. When the doctor basically tells you that babies cry for many reasons and maby you're doing something wrong... you start to feel like you ARE doing something wrong.
Friday, April 24, 2009
Wait a minute!
My baby boy is four months old as of yesterday. In the midst of all the doctor drama I totally spaced on the date!! How is this possible?!
This morning seems to be much better already. He ate gulping swallows this morning, pulled away from me, smiled really big and then kept eating. Praise Jesus. I'm so happy. Thank goodness for medicine.
In Matthew news, we've started talking about his birthday party. It will either be race Cars or Thomas. He says one or the other each time. So we'll see what's the most popular vote the closer it gets b/c I'm going to need to start getting things. Can my big boy really be nearing his third birthday already?!
Goodness.
This morning seems to be much better already. He ate gulping swallows this morning, pulled away from me, smiled really big and then kept eating. Praise Jesus. I'm so happy. Thank goodness for medicine.
In Matthew news, we've started talking about his birthday party. It will either be race Cars or Thomas. He says one or the other each time. So we'll see what's the most popular vote the closer it gets b/c I'm going to need to start getting things. Can my big boy really be nearing his third birthday already?!
Goodness.
Thursday, April 23, 2009
Update on Mark
Good. Grief.
So yesterday I felt like someone flipped the switch on my happy baby and we got CRANKY PANTS again. What happened?! It was like the meds were a joke and the screaming started back up. Lots and lots of screaming and lots and lots of not eating. My poor baby. He skipped a feeding last night, screamed straight through it and then fell asleep. Same story this morning. Not interested in eating, obviously the pain returned. My poor baby was in pain and soooo I called the doc.... I'm serious when I say they wouldn't see us. Are you kidding me? No. No I'm not. They wouldn't see us. "Some babies are fussy, babies cry because of lots of things, it could be gas or it could be the way you are holding him" STOP. Excuse me?? He is SCREAMING. This is not "a fussy baby." My poor child is in pain and you want to do what? So they said they really couldn't see him if he didn't have a fever, throwing up or blood in the stool... WHAT?! WHAT?!?!
Got off the phone there and cried. Called my best friend and cried to her. Called a new friend and nearly cried all over again, got her doc's name and number and was sent to call new doc pronto. At 1:30 pm, the chances of a new doc seeing us was probably slim but I called anyhow. ... The lady on the phone was SO nice. Said "why don't you come on in and we'll squeeze you in" She was floored my own doc wouldn't see Mark. The lady who gave me the papers to fill out was floored we weren't seen at our own office too... the Doctor herself (so so so nice) was also curious as to what the deal was with prior doc. She said to me "Adults don't need to throw up if they have heart burn to get medicine, so why should babies??" *big huge mega sigh of relief* Thank you Doc. Thank you. She gave us new meds and told me to call if he doesn't improve and she'll try something different. I'm so glad. I will be switching docs permanently effective yesterday. So after we left the doc's office we went to the pharmacy. And got back home nearly 3 hours later but that's okay. We'll be okay. Mark is going to be okay, this means Momma will be okay. Okay.
So yesterday I felt like someone flipped the switch on my happy baby and we got CRANKY PANTS again. What happened?! It was like the meds were a joke and the screaming started back up. Lots and lots of screaming and lots and lots of not eating. My poor baby. He skipped a feeding last night, screamed straight through it and then fell asleep. Same story this morning. Not interested in eating, obviously the pain returned. My poor baby was in pain and soooo I called the doc.... I'm serious when I say they wouldn't see us. Are you kidding me? No. No I'm not. They wouldn't see us. "Some babies are fussy, babies cry because of lots of things, it could be gas or it could be the way you are holding him" STOP. Excuse me?? He is SCREAMING. This is not "a fussy baby." My poor child is in pain and you want to do what? So they said they really couldn't see him if he didn't have a fever, throwing up or blood in the stool... WHAT?! WHAT?!?!
Got off the phone there and cried. Called my best friend and cried to her. Called a new friend and nearly cried all over again, got her doc's name and number and was sent to call new doc pronto. At 1:30 pm, the chances of a new doc seeing us was probably slim but I called anyhow. ... The lady on the phone was SO nice. Said "why don't you come on in and we'll squeeze you in" She was floored my own doc wouldn't see Mark. The lady who gave me the papers to fill out was floored we weren't seen at our own office too... the Doctor herself (so so so nice) was also curious as to what the deal was with prior doc. She said to me "Adults don't need to throw up if they have heart burn to get medicine, so why should babies??" *big huge mega sigh of relief* Thank you Doc. Thank you. She gave us new meds and told me to call if he doesn't improve and she'll try something different. I'm so glad. I will be switching docs permanently effective yesterday. So after we left the doc's office we went to the pharmacy. And got back home nearly 3 hours later but that's okay. We'll be okay. Mark is going to be okay, this means Momma will be okay. Okay.
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
I choose happiness
I just thought I'd share in here (in case there are those not following along in my weight blog) that as of today, I'm starting anew in my weight loss efforts. I've been sort of gliding along lately. I know what I should be doing and I've only been skimming the surface. I've been doing juuuuuust enough to squeak by. Well I'm tired of that. I'm ready to CHOOSE HAPPINESS for myself and for our family and in order to do that I've got to choose HEALTHY. So today I joined two challenges on the ww message boards. One was a Shred challenge. (If you are losing weight and want a kick your rump work out, get Jillian Michaels 30 day Shred. Oy.) So today was day one. I did it. It killed me. But I was so proud. I am worth this. It sucks right now, but I'm choosing to save my life. And I'm choosing to make the quality of life with the three most important men in my life wonderful. I'm ready for more. I'm ready to GO. After Matthew was born it took me over a year and a half to lose 74 pounds. I can do this. I have already done it then, and now I'm just relosing what I know I can lose again. I'm watching the weight fall this time and I know it's for real. I want it to stay. I want to be happy. Watch me. I will do this in less time this time. I'm not going to dawdle this time. I am not willing to waste "poor me" time. It's over. This is war. Me against the weight. And the weight will not win.
I choose happiness.
I choose happiness.
Friday, April 17, 2009
So. Much. Better.
I don't know if they gave me a placebo or if I'd care if it was one. LOL! But all I know is that my happy, content baby is back and I'm so pleased. He hasn't screamed since mid afternoon yesterday. Now has he cried since then, sure. Been fussy, yes... but screamed in pain? NO! Praise Jesus.
Thursday, April 16, 2009
back from the doc
We did get some anti-acid meds to try. We'll try it. Though sadly it's worked no miracles yet. LOL I gave him a dose at about 11:30 (as recommended by the pharmacist to give him the meds before the feeding) ... He screamed from 11:40 until nearly 1:00 But, I'm more than willing to give it several days though to see if it helps. We have a month supply and do go back in just over a week to have his four month appt.
The doc was kind of jerkingly pleasant about how "it was probably just fussiness" I started to tear up right there in the doctor's office. IT is NOT just "fussing" it is all out SCREAMING, nothing will make it stop or better SCREAMING. Something has to give here, please give us meds! Let us try something. He told me "just keep doing what you're doing and when he's fussy, just try to burp him a little bit and..." WHAT?! Are you serious? I did NOT just pay 25 bucks copay for you to tell me "you're doing all you can if he's a fussy baby" BECUASE HE IS NOT FUSSY. He is a really good calm baby unless it's feeding time. And then he's a holy terror of screaming horribleness. ... sigh
Something else though that was brought to my attention today by another mom friend is that his tongue is still tied down. This particular doc didn't think it needed to be snipped-- much unlike the first ped we had with Matthew who cut his at the 2 month appt. Mark's two month appt came and went and the doc was real anti snipping it. Well this mom said that her daughter's tongue-tie was so bad that she was actually having problems nursing because she was able to suck the fore milk but not the hind milk. (ugh!) soooo her daughter would suck a few minutes and then scream murder not able to get the full fatty stuff. While I don't think that *that* is our issue, since Mark is gaining weight... it's just one more thing to worry about and wonder about and I will be bringing this up again at the next appt. If snipping his tongue makes him not scream for hours and eat easier, buddy let's do that. Matthew's is cut, I wont feel badly cutting Mark's. The doc originally was saying that he didn't want to cut it unnecessarily, which I agree but again I repeat... something's got to give. Please make it stop.
The doc was kind of jerkingly pleasant about how "it was probably just fussiness" I started to tear up right there in the doctor's office. IT is NOT just "fussing" it is all out SCREAMING, nothing will make it stop or better SCREAMING. Something has to give here, please give us meds! Let us try something. He told me "just keep doing what you're doing and when he's fussy, just try to burp him a little bit and..." WHAT?! Are you serious? I did NOT just pay 25 bucks copay for you to tell me "you're doing all you can if he's a fussy baby" BECUASE HE IS NOT FUSSY. He is a really good calm baby unless it's feeding time. And then he's a holy terror of screaming horribleness. ... sigh
Something else though that was brought to my attention today by another mom friend is that his tongue is still tied down. This particular doc didn't think it needed to be snipped-- much unlike the first ped we had with Matthew who cut his at the 2 month appt. Mark's two month appt came and went and the doc was real anti snipping it. Well this mom said that her daughter's tongue-tie was so bad that she was actually having problems nursing because she was able to suck the fore milk but not the hind milk. (ugh!) soooo her daughter would suck a few minutes and then scream murder not able to get the full fatty stuff. While I don't think that *that* is our issue, since Mark is gaining weight... it's just one more thing to worry about and wonder about and I will be bringing this up again at the next appt. If snipping his tongue makes him not scream for hours and eat easier, buddy let's do that. Matthew's is cut, I wont feel badly cutting Mark's. The doc originally was saying that he didn't want to cut it unnecessarily, which I agree but again I repeat... something's got to give. Please make it stop.
make it stop
The screaming has got to stop. For over a month now, Mark has been doing poorly when it comes to eating. He just screams his ever lovin head off. At first I thought it was ears. Since he would only scream when laying flat to eat. But we ruled out ears after calling the doc and answering 50 questions... and it was sporadic, some days it would be every feeding, some days it's only one or two bad ones. So then I thought maybe it was me. It seemed that he was actually only refusing one side and not the other. So we googled and researched "baby feeding on one side and not the other" And I found volumes of moms who only nurse on one side (usually the left side, if that means anything) while kiddo refuses the other side (the right) and either they just pump the "bad" side or just let it dry up. Meh. Okay so what should we do? Should we let things on the "bad" side dry up or should I be trapped to the pump on that side now? We kept trying the feedings and then I'd pump when it was needed. We found in the research that moms who had one "bad" side would lay down when feeding that side and the baby would take the offending side. So we started trying that. Sometimes it worked great. Other times the screaming would just continue. He'd scream before he'd ever latch on sometimes, so I'd think "Oh God, it is me." I was sick a couple weekends back and I thought he was refusing me since I was sick . ....maybe it didn't taste right??? ***GOSH, the mind games mommy plays on her self**** SO, we popped a can of formula. After over an hour of screaming, he sucked down 4 ounces. YES! We figured it out. I just taste bad. Okay, or not... since the next three bottle attempts were awful and less than an ounce each try. Sigh. So, okay, try me again. Gulp gulp gulp. Okay, maybe it's not me... Sigh. What do we do now? We've tried just formula, just pumped milk, a mixture, and me in every possible position for the kiddo to nurse... Most bad feedings can last 40 minutes to 1.5 hours of screaming before he'll finally eat... so something's got to give. The screaming has to stop. My poor baby. I feel like the biggest mother of the year over here waiting this long, but we are going to the doctor today. I've been suggested by several moms over the last week or so that they think it's reflux. Please pass me my MOTY award. My poor baby probably needs real medicine and here I was just thinking "Oh I taste bad today?" "It's got to be better today" "Maybe it will be better today""Maybe today is the day....?" Come on. *super sad face* Great job Kate. Great job. So we'll be back with an update later as to what the doc has to say.
I will note that I have weighed him at a friend's house with a baby scale, he has gained weight since his last appt so I have not been starving my child. Thank you.
I will note that I have weighed him at a friend's house with a baby scale, he has gained weight since his last appt so I have not been starving my child. Thank you.
Wednesday, April 8, 2009
fishing in the garden
So, we've decided to plant a veggie garden. (more on that later I'm sure)
Tonight Matthew was out there with his own little shovel working along side Daddy while I was still inside with Mark... I go out there and Matthew is showing me this nasty long string tied to something metal at one end...
Matthew: "Look I fishing"
me: "Um, where'd he get that?"
Jamie: "he dug it up"
me: "He what?!"
Jamie: "He dug it up"
Matthew: "I dug it up in the dirt!"
me: "Great..."
Tonight Matthew was out there with his own little shovel working along side Daddy while I was still inside with Mark... I go out there and Matthew is showing me this nasty long string tied to something metal at one end...
Matthew: "Look I fishing"
me: "Um, where'd he get that?"
Jamie: "he dug it up"
me: "He what?!"
Jamie: "He dug it up"
Matthew: "I dug it up in the dirt!"
me: "Great..."
Friday, April 3, 2009
SKYPE
DUUUUUUDE....
This is my Public Service Announcement...
Skype.com go there. download it. tell your loved ones to download it. OMG-- Last night I TALKED TO and SAW my dad for an hour! We pulled up a chair and Matthew got to talk to grandpa (as much as a two year old is interested in sitting still), he made faces, sang a song, showed grandpa he's two fingers... oh it was beautiful! My folks got to see Mark and how big he's gotten since they last saw him. WONDERFUL.
Skype is FREE to download. AND FREE to use as long as both parties have skype downloaded there is not cost to make calls from one computer to the next. I don't know why we hadn't heard about this until now, but THANK GOODNESS someone told us about it and encouraged us to try it out. All you need is a webcam and a microphone and working speakers--though you can accept calls without a webcam, just can't use that feature obviously.
Sorry if this post is a little jumpy, but I'm so excited. I live 10 hours from my parents and now I can see them whenever we're both on the computer and it just rocks! Matthew missed talking to Grammy becuase he had to go to bed before she got home, but tonight he'll get to see and talk to her.
SO AMAZING.
Did I mention it's free???! We gave no credit card numbers or anyhting... just downloaded the software and then our computer called dad's computer. and there he WAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's so wonderful to be able to have them see the boys and feel more "here" even though we're still so far. Amazing.
This is my Public Service Announcement...
Skype.com go there. download it. tell your loved ones to download it. OMG-- Last night I TALKED TO and SAW my dad for an hour! We pulled up a chair and Matthew got to talk to grandpa (as much as a two year old is interested in sitting still), he made faces, sang a song, showed grandpa he's two fingers... oh it was beautiful! My folks got to see Mark and how big he's gotten since they last saw him. WONDERFUL.
Skype is FREE to download. AND FREE to use as long as both parties have skype downloaded there is not cost to make calls from one computer to the next. I don't know why we hadn't heard about this until now, but THANK GOODNESS someone told us about it and encouraged us to try it out. All you need is a webcam and a microphone and working speakers--though you can accept calls without a webcam, just can't use that feature obviously.
Sorry if this post is a little jumpy, but I'm so excited. I live 10 hours from my parents and now I can see them whenever we're both on the computer and it just rocks! Matthew missed talking to Grammy becuase he had to go to bed before she got home, but tonight he'll get to see and talk to her.
SO AMAZING.
Did I mention it's free???! We gave no credit card numbers or anyhting... just downloaded the software and then our computer called dad's computer. and there he WAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's so wonderful to be able to have them see the boys and feel more "here" even though we're still so far. Amazing.
Wednesday, April 1, 2009
a spider did it....
We had our first battle of lying.... :-( I'm so sad. I'm not ready for my baby to start being a big boy and all that means... growing up and growing stories....
Me: Where does the pen go?
Him: On the paper.
Me: What's this?
Him: Its my foot.
Me: Did you color on your foot?
Him: Nope.
Me: Matthew, did you color on your foot? (As I'm holding up his foot that is scribbled all over with pen)
Him: noooo.
Me: Matthew, Who colored on this foot?
Him: I don't know.
Me: Did Matthew color on this foot?
Him: No.
Me: Matthew, look at momma... who colored on this foot?
Him: (mumbling mumbling)
Me: Who?
Him: um, a spider?
Me: Matthew, that's not the truth is it? Did you color the pen on this foot?
Him: No, a spider?
Me Matthew did it ... say "Yes Momma, I did"
Him: Yes.... mommma.... (really sad and drawn out)
Me: Where does the pen go?
Him: On the paper.
Me: What's this?
Him: Its my foot.
Me: Did you color on your foot?
Him: Nope.
Me: Matthew, did you color on your foot? (As I'm holding up his foot that is scribbled all over with pen)
Him: noooo.
Me: Matthew, Who colored on this foot?
Him: I don't know.
Me: Did Matthew color on this foot?
Him: No.
Me: Matthew, look at momma... who colored on this foot?
Him: (mumbling mumbling)
Me: Who?
Him: um, a spider?
Me: Matthew, that's not the truth is it? Did you color the pen on this foot?
Him: No, a spider?
Me Matthew did it ... say "Yes Momma, I did"
Him: Yes.... mommma.... (really sad and drawn out)
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